Wednesday, December 10, 2014
Fate vs. Free will
To what extent is Oedipus a dupe of the gods who have sealed his fate? To what extent does Oedipus bring about his own downfall? [Hint: If someone prophesied that you would kill your father and marry your mother, the prudent person would avoid killing all men and resist marrying an older woman.] Why do you think the gods are so nasty to Oedipus? Do you think Oedipus has any free will, or is he just a plaything of the gods?
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ReplyDeleteOedipus is practically a pawn of the gods since it was decided even before his birth that if he were to be conceived from Laios and Jocasta, that he would kill his father as well as marry his mother. To put things in perspective, Oedipus is just like a puppet that is being manipulated and no matter what he does, it would had already been decided by the gods. To add on to the idea that he is a puppet, in lines 99-100, it says “The god commands us to expel from the land of Thebes / An old defilement we are sheltering,” which conveys the idea that the gods have no more use for Oedipus and are disposing of him in a cruel manner. The gods are so nasty to Oedipus most likely because he tried to escape his fate by fleeing from his “father” so that he wouldn’t kill him; however, it turns out that he was instead on his way to his real father, and later killed him.
ReplyDeleteOedipus brings about his own downfall by trying to run away from fate, but instead of escaping it, he accelerated it by not only running into his real father, but also by killing him. To make things worse, Oedipus was ignorant to what was really happening, so while he thought that he was not fulfilling the prophecy, it was, in fact, the opposite. I feel like Oedipus does not have much free will, since everything he did had been dictated by the gods, whether it be killing his real father by accident, or marrying his mother by accident as well. This relates back to the idea that Oedipus is a pawn of the gods and how he has little say to what he can do. The free will that he does have can be seen through some of his decisions like how he choose to solve the Sphinx’s riddle, which ended up winning him the gratitude of the people of that city. While Oedipus has a little power in what he can do, he is mainly a servant of the gods and the major events in his life are dictated by the them to an extent.
Great points. I also strongly agree that Oedipus is a pawn of the gods, although in terms of free will I believe that in greek literature fate was more significant then free will, which may have explained his dictation. However when Oedipus does solve the Sphinxes riddle, I believe that this also was fate, because according to the play I believe that Oedipus may be the only Theban who is capable of solving the riddle, which may also involve Oedipus' prophecy.
DeleteI agree completely about how he is "a puppet of the Gods". Although that he was being manipulated, I also thought that his ignorance and stubbornness played a role throughout his journey. For example, he would never listen to other characters, especially when Tiresias and the Oracle told him of the future.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with how he is a " puppet of the gods". He Sort of plays the role of a fool. While evreyone else knows whats going on he stays in the dark and never listens to anyone. His decisions decided his fate.
DeleteOedipus' fate is ultimately inevitable, but only by him being completely oblivious to his own identity and background.
ReplyDeleteOnce Oedipus has been told by Apollo of the prophecy that he shall murder his father and lie with his mother, he runs away from Corinth where he was raised in order to prevent the prophecy from becoming true. Oedipus had perfectly good reason to believe that he had successfully avoided the prophecy because as far as he knew, he had just left King Polybos and Queen Meropê of Corinth (his father and mother respectively), behind. During Oedipus' journey away from Corinth, he seems to be a victim of circumstance. He stumbled upon Laïos' convoy, not knowing the old man seated in the center was Laïos himself; the king. He happened to be in the middle of the road and was forced off, but as Oedipus had said, "The old man saw me and brought his double goad down upon my head...He was paid back, and more!...I killed him" (lines 766-772). Oedipus was not aware that Laïos was his father or that he was even a king, so as far is his knowledge went, he had just killed any ordinary group of travelers. It seems to be that Oedipus was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Later, when Oedipus had arrived in Thebes and solved the Sphinx's riddle, the people thought that it would be honorable to grant their hero a king's position. A woman named Iokastê was already Queen of Thebes, so it seemed only appropriate that the new king should marry the queen. However, this is another instance where Oedipus is unaware of the underlying circumstances. Oedipus does not know that Iokastê is in fact his own mother and neither does she. They are both blind to the truth.
Even Iokastê herself believed Oedipus had prevented the prophecy. She is dubious of prophecies especially after Polybos had died from natural causes and not Oedipus' hand. She even says "A man should live only for the present day" (line 930). But still, they both live in ignorance Ignorance is bliss right?
The prophecy had affected Laïos as well, saying that if he and Iokastê had a child, this would happen to him and his wife. Since he had had a child anyway (while he was drunk, it was said), he had violated the first circumstance, dooming himself. But why Oedipus? Later in his life he clearly showed potential of becoming a great king, which he did in fact do. But it seemed he could do nothing about it. It did not help that his supposed parents in Corinth continually held the truth away from him. He was oblivious this whole time, and no one said a word about his true identity until it was too late. I do not believe Oedipus' fate was fair, but he unfortunately did not have free will. As much as he tried to avoid his fate, it did not work.
Despite all this, as far as Oedipus knew, he was practicing free will. He had no idea that the woman he married was his mother and that the man he killed was his father. He only knew the king and queen of Corinth to be his parents, and he had abandoned them. It was not his fault for playing out the prophecy in the end because he had no idea he was doing so, and had perfectly good reason to believe it was over. But, living oblivious to the truth had ultimately brought upon his own downfall.
I recognise with the idea that humans believe in their own ability to change what occurs in their life, and do not act under the power of the Gods, or of destiny, but would you agree that Oedipus is not to blame for his misfortune? His entire life is governed by a curse that he had not control over whatsoever.
DeleteJudging from how tragic and unavoidable Oedipus' fate was and how it ultimately lead to his death can be viewed as a deception from the gods. Knowing that his destiny is to murder his father and marry his mother is certainly not what he wants to put into effect. In the end, Oedipus was a victim to his own fate and was unable to avoid it. As Oedipus states, "...damned in his birth, in his marriage damned, damned in the blood he shed with his own hand!"(line 1122-1123), he finally acknowledges his sin and finalizes the idea that he was to blame for his own fate, not the fate itself.
ReplyDeleteOedipus' persistence in learning the truth of his identity and refusal to accept the forewarning's of Tiresias, Jocasta and the Shepherd, eventually lead to his undoing. It is acceptable to understand Oedipus' eagerness to find out who he really was and who his real parents were, but his denial of listening to others trying to protect him allows Oedipus to realize the truth. He was too deeply involved with the prophecy that in the end, he was not able to escape his destruction. In a way, Oedipus did the opposite of preventing his prophecy, by following it through with killing his real father and marrying his mother. The gods, in my opinion, were nasty to Oedipus because of his ironic actions of allowing him to go through with the prophecy in the first place. Oedipus walked into his prophecy when trying to avoid it and is thought later to have been freed of his cruel fate.
I disagree with the idea of Oedipus having free will. Because fate had decided everything for Oedipus, he would not have been able to run away from his fate because it was destiny to follow it through. Not only was he a victim to a harsh and tragic life, but is destined to the inevitable idea of not being able to avoid it.
I totally agree with classifying Oedipus as a victim of fate and his own tragic life. Also about his refusal to accept the truth, I feel that he is in denial because he is being told new information that is psychologically very hard to grasp. These are things that contradict everything he has ever known for every long year of his life.
DeleteI think that Oedipus is a dupe of the gods. He never listened to the oracle or the blind wise man Tiresias, when they would tell him the truth of the prophecy. He has been told the truth so many times and he never listened and because of that he had to find out the hard way. Him choosing not to listen decided his fate
ReplyDeleteAgreeable, well said, and straight to the point; awesomeness!!!!
DeleteOedipus is not a dupe of the gods. He is simply a victim of fate.
ReplyDeleteWe must remember this: the Greek gods had no control over fate; even they were subjected to it.
Although Oedipus’ horrid future ensured an inevitable downfall, his actions helped secure his unfortunate end as well. Even before he was conceived, his fate was decreed: murder his father and marry his mother. So when he heard of his prophecy without realizing his true identity, he attempted to escape it by leaving behind what he thought was his true home. However, he rashly did this without have a direct conversation with his adoptive parents about the situation, and it immediately placed him at the doors of his destructive end. Later, when he encountered Laios, his real father, he was easily provoked by their argument, resulting in the older man’s death. Without realizing what he had done because of his ignorance and poor attitude, he completed the first half of the prophecy. Oedipus’ pride, ignorance, and tragic decision making are aiding factors that assisted fate. But even without these fatal flaws, Oedipus would have someway reached a tragic end no matter what.
The gods are nasty to Oedipus because he murdered Laios. They plague the city of Thebes in order to ensure that the criminal will receive the proper punishment. The gods simply wanted justice for the dead man.
Oedipus didn't have free will because his prophecy dictated his life – never his actions. And he isn’t necessarily a plaything of the gods, but a pawn of fate instead.
I really like what you've written. Do you think you could elaborate more on how the Greek gods didn't have control over the fate of humans, if it was the fate of humans you were referring to rather than their selves (the gods). Overall, I like your post, quite different from what I've read!! :)
Delete:3 Thanks for replying, Alia!
DeleteAlright - so, remember the power point from the other day? Well, from what I recall, Ms. Delman stated that although the Greek gods were divine, they still possessed human-like qualities, such has having no control over fate. Unless I misunderstood, then what I'm asserting is clear: The Greek gods had no authority over their future and mankind's as well.
The Moirai (Three Fates) designed the fates of both gods and humans alike.
(By the way, your outside reading project was beautiful!)
The entire idea of this tragedy is that despite anyone persons attempt to change their fate, it is utterly impossible. Oedipus’ prophecy was supposedly put out of order with his death at birth, when his father essentially murdered him. This was meant to stop the fulfillment of this curse, but because of the Gods, the game continued. Miraculously, poor Oedipus survives. And why is this? It occurred because the Gods wished it to be. They can dictate whatever outcome for any human, merely to entertain himself or herself, and nothing can be done about it. The prophecy had to come true, it was the entire point of this tragedy.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the fault is held with King Laios and Jocasta, for not ensuring the death of their son; perhaps the blame is even held with Oedipus himself. But although they could have all worked even more furiously to ensure the complete destruction of this prophecy, this never occurs. The Gods cannot have their toys defying the orders of the almighty. It does not occur because the Gods did not create only the prophecy, but because in this tale they (by extension) control every action of those involved with the prophecy. This story accurately explains the belief that any power a human may have is trivial to that of a God, and can be taken away immediately. No wish or fight can change the destiny of a human, because they are simply the playthings of the dieties.
But do you think that potentially the fault you stated of King Laios was not the god's fate for him aswell? Maybe it was his own fate to be killed by his son so that Oedipus can fulfill his own fate, like a series of unfortunate events (great movie fyi). But I do agree with how you think the gods have to show that their prophecies will be fulfilled and obeyed. Or else a tragic tale such as Oedipus will occur if you think you can beat them
Delete(Typing this a second time due to blog issues) I feel that the gods had chosen Oedipus's fate to be like this as a lesson to him. Either they wanted to show Oedipus he could not get away from a decision the gods have made as if Oedipus believed he was more powerful. My other idea was that it was a punishment for Oedipus for how he treated others, being a harsh and rash man.
ReplyDeleteAs for if Oedipus had any control over his fate I believe he didn't over major events but it was entirely up to him on how to deal with what occurs. I believe it was entirely Oedipus's choice on how to react and more forward from an event created by his destiny, which throughout the course of the play, we see how badly he takes it.
P.S: Yay no school! , I hope everyone and their families stay safe throughout this storm
Your point on Oedipus' vision of himself as someone higher than human is spot on. It provides a sound reason for the gods' punishment and characterizes Oedipus for the oblivious and rash man he really is.
DeleteAlthough Oedipus is a rash and arrogant character, he shines in effort. Whether or not it is for the best, it can be said that he tries to accomplish his goals to the best of his ability. The same holds true in his attempt at avoiding fate. After being told of his destiny, Oedipus tries everything in his power to make sure he does not kill his father and share a bed with his mother. However, the gods have played a cruel trick on the oblivious Oedipus. Sophocles’ tale of Oedipus suggests that free will is simply and illusion that leads down a predetermined path. Oedipus believes that he is doing everything correct and can dodge his destiny. If the gods people worship are real, they are constantly watching, planning our every move. What the world does not realize is that they cannot be seen. Nor can their schemes for us be known. However, the gods are especially hard on our tragic hero. Although his fate was already sealed, he had to find out in the worst way. While in the end, mostly everyone knew the truth, Oedipus remained oblivious. Here we see the Oedipus’ actions while on the path towards his destiny come back to haunt him. Instead of accepting that ignorance is bliss, Oedipus drove himself mad in search of the truth and by attempting to outrun it. Not only did this not work, but also his own actions brought him further down the path to his downfall. The gods, because of his actions and whatever freewill he has brought on his cruel and tragic ending.
ReplyDelete20 minutes late due to internet issues. also does anyone know if its odd or even tmo?
DeleteI wouldn't say that he's rash, just blinded. However, I do agree with the point that he shines in effort. When you said that "Sophocles’ tale of Oedipus suggests that free will is simply an illusion that leads down a predetermined path", that's a very interesting way to look at it, I never thought of it that way. In the end, I'm guessing that you think this is the gods' and Oedipus's fault. In this context, I agree with you. However, I don't think it was anyone's fault because I think that they were just trying to do what they thought was right.
DeleteTheology is set up in a way that you are told you have free will, and you have the decision to guide your life and which every way you guide your life, the result is because of your doings. At the same time there is fate meaning your ending is known and predetermined. This existence of free will and fate together is a pretty huge contradiction. You cannot have the power to control your life if it is already said and done. And no matter what you do or don’t every choice will ultimately lead to what you were destined to do. So yeah, even if Iokaste avoided being with younger men rather than trying to kill her son it wouldn’t change the course of the prophecy. Somehow, she’d end up marrying Oedipus. And quite frankly, she’s not to blame for this outcome neither is Oedipus. Both are victims of an unavoidable fate.
ReplyDeleteI like your idea that both Jocasta and Oedipus were victims of fate because it made me think about if every character was just a victim of fate. Maybe even the gods were victims of fate to create fates.
DeleteIt is no question that Oedipus is a victim to the God's sadistic prophecy of having him kill his biological father and marry and have children with his mother. On one hand, Oedipus' fate cannot be overcome, no matter how hard he tries to run away from, it can never disappear. However, the King is presented with a series of choices in that 24 hour period, and his own hubris and stubborn nature push him to make the wrong decisions, that would ultimately lead him to his downfall.
ReplyDeleteWhen the blind prophet Teresias, is called so to shed light on the murder of King Laius (Knowing that Oedipus is the murderer) the prophet warns Oedipus against pursuing the subject. Oedipus stubbornly rejects his advice and insults the holy man. Being the overseer of Thebes, Oedipus should have acknowledged and respected the clairvoyant's ability and reputation, and follow through on the instruction. But he didn't, out of pure pride and determination of finding out the truth, no matter how ugly it is. Eventually, Jocasta opens her eyes to this truth and realizes Oedipus' true identity, her husband is actually her son. She pleads for him to drop the matter but, once again, he refuses. Oedipus is completely blind to what is going on around his life and only sees what he wants to see. He takes the advice and consolation of none of his peers or elders. Once everything begins to unfold, the King's reactions would ultimately define the tragedy as of his fault.
Nowhere in this prophecy did it say for Oedipus to gouge his eyes out. The Gods never wanted the king blind. He did that to himself, in a fit of rage and guilt. One of the most tragic parts of the story, relating to Oedipus was because of his own emotions. He dove straight into this entire mess, and never prepared well enough or just stop, like many suggested. This is what defines the tragedy, in my opinion.
I strongly agree with the points you made. I also think Oedipus' hamartia was his stubbornness. I never really thought about the last point you made, about how he gouged his eyes out. And I think that was the result of a mixture of his stubbornness (which you established was his flaw) and his anger issues (is that you would call it?). And yes, the prophecy never stated that he would die, but he did that to himself, so he should be held responsible for that.
DeleteThe fate that the gods gave to Oedipus is like a piece of paper with the fate written on it. And with everything that Oedipus did in his life would fold, crease, rip, turn, flip, do whatever to the paper, creating an illusion of what was really on that paper. In Oedipus’s case, he created the illusion that he was this sinless king. He folded his fate so that when he unfolds it, the truth would be so overwhelming that he would want to be blind so that he doesn’t have to look at it. The gods would be nasty to Oedipus because Oedipus wasn’t supposed to find out his fate, even Teiresias, Kreon, and Jocasta didn’t tell him completely, but since he did find out, the outcome was nasty. However, I don’t think that Oedipus was specifically the gods’ plaything, just having a fate chosen by them. It’ll be Oedipus’s free will that’ll determine that if the fate will be a good or bad thing for him, in this case he made it bad.
ReplyDelete